A politician’s mental wellbeing is as important as a pilot’s. So, why do we pay so little attention to the wellbeing of our leaders? In this episode, Dr Victoria Hasson and Dr Ashley Weinberg talk about why and how we should give politicians the support they need to serve people well, and why politicians' job creates barriers to accessing support.
Dr Ashley Weinberg is an occupational psychologist, who has been studying the psychology of politicians for 30 years. Dr Victoria Hasson is a political wellbeing trainer and the founder of the Silent MP.
Dr Hasson’s Book Recommendation: The Life of an MP: Everything You Really Need to Know About Politics by Jess Phillips
Dr Weinberg’s Book Recommendation: Why We Get the Wrong Politicians by Isabel Hardman
Hot book tip: Dr Weinberg edited Psychology of Democracy: Of the People, By the People, For the People, which was released last year.
Reach us on Twitter (@apoliticalfound), LinkedIn (Apolitical Foundation), Instagram (@apoliticalfoundation) and Facebook (@apoliticalfoundation) or email via info@apolitical.foundation. Sign up to our weekly briefing for inspiration to help you build better politics: bit.ly/3NlIWSt
A politician’s mental wellbeing is as important as a pilot’s. So, why do we pay so little attention to the wellbeing of our leaders? In this episode, Dr Victoria Hasson and Dr Ashley Weinberg talk about why and how we should give politicians the support they need to serve people well, and why politicians' job creates barriers to accessing support.
Dr Ashley Weinberg is an occupational psychologist, who has been studying the psychology of politicians for 30 years. Dr Victoria Hasson is a political wellbeing trainer and the founder of the Silent MP.
Dr Hasson’s Book Recommendation: The Life of an MP: Everything You Really Need to Know About Politics by Jess Phillips
Dr Weinberg’s Book Recommendation: Why We Get the Wrong Politicians by Isabel Hardman
Hot book tip: Dr Weinberg edited Psychology of Democracy: Of the People, By the People, For the People, which was released last year.
Reach us on Twitter (@apoliticalfound), LinkedIn (Apolitical Foundation), Instagram (@apoliticalfoundation) and Facebook (@apoliticalfoundation) or email via info@apolitical.foundation. Sign up to our weekly briefing for inspiration to help you build better politics: bit.ly/3NlIWSt
Hello, dear listeners, welcome back to a political hope. The podcast exploring how to get the courageous, trusted and ethical politicians we need for the 21st century. I'm the political foundation see, oh, Kimberly MacArthur. And today my colleague Joe Lee Dowd is talking to doctors Victoria Hudson, and Ashley Weinberg, about why we should care about politicians mental well being,
Victoria Hasson:I have often thought it would probably be better if he just didn't go to that meeting than present himself in the state that he is in.
Kim McArthur:Some people might find it odd to care about politicians mental health, aren't they among the most privileged groups in society? Can't they look after their own mental health? In this discussion, Victoria and Ashley talk about how politicians mental well being is as important as pilots, and how political leaders often find it more difficult to access sensitive health care because of their jobs. We've been following this topic for a while now and partnering with the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation on a project mapping the state of politicians mental well being and the initiatives to help them from around the world
Ashley Weinberg:politicians as they are not universally popular as an occupational group. Yet the stakes as Victoria identified are particularly high.
Kim McArthur:Dr. Victoria Hasson is, among many things political well being trainer and the founder of the silent MP, which offers coaching consulting and courses to support soulful and Ambitious politicians. Dr. Ashley Weinberg is an occupational psychologist and a senior lecturer at the University of Salford School of Health and Society. He has been researching the psychology and mental well being of politicians for 30 years, though, as he reveals in this podcast, often without funding. This is one of the first apolitical home episodes we recorded. And we hadn't yet started asking people for their book recommendations. Never fear though, we asked them by email, and we've put them in the show notes. You might notice that all three people in this discussion are from the UK. But we want to hear from people all over the world. So if you have any leads or want to contribute to our mental well being mapping project, please reach out to us via social media, or via info at a political doc Foundation. And with that, here's our discussion with doctors Victoria Hudson, and Ashley Weinberg.
Joe Lee-Dowd:So we'll get straight into it. Let's start with you, Victoria. And I guess the first place to start would be why should we even care about politicians mental health,
Victoria Hasson:oh, well, whether we like them or not, they lead us and they take decisions that affect our lives. So we need them to be sound of mind and healthy, but I love Ashley Weinberg's sort of framing of politicians as pilots, but I've often also seen them as like surgeons, they take decisions that affect the future quality of our lives. And just as we would never dream of having surgeons cutters open if they were a little bit jaded, or they were suffering and struggling under the surface. We really don't want our politicians to be suffering and struggling under the surface either when they're in the room talking about things that affect our features and the quality of our features. More importantly, same.
Joe Lee-Dowd:Absolutely. And is really interesting seeing that comparison with other areas of the workforce. Yep, pilots, surgeons, yes, but also the health and social care sectors where the need for support is more widely kind of accepted and documented. So Ashley, yeah, that was the phrase that you coined. When you wrote in The Washington Post a couple of years back, you said the mental health of a lawmaker is as important as a pilot, or as a surgeon's democracies depend on it? Would you like to expand a little bit more on that analogy that you gave?
Ashley Weinberg:I think I'm a work psychologist by training, I do happen to have an interest in politics and the occupations in politics. So I think it's an issue that affects all jobs. To be honest, I'm not suggesting for a minute one is more important than the other, but certainly as you've identified, its reach certainly is. And I think with the particular issue with politicians is they are not universally popular as an occupational group. Yet the stakes as Victoria identified are particularly high and have implications for whole countries internationally as well as you know, current and future and past events always demonstrate. So I think that idea that we Need to ensure they're in the best possible shape psychologically as well as physically is a really important point for all occupational groups, including politicians. But I think as well, that sort of making sure they have the support and access to that support is important, and which you would hope for the kind of jobs where lives depend on it.
Joe Lee-Dowd:Suppose, as he touched on, it might not be a universally popular idea, because some people might argue that this idea about caring about politicians mental health, in a environment where people might not have such positive attitudes towards politicians in the UK, for example, or where people are a population and dealing with a particularly volatile political situation, I think some people might just say, well, there's lots of people struggling with mental health problems at the moment on politicians, some of the most sort of privileged and powerful people in the world. Why can't they? They deal with this and sort of keep it separate from their work? What would you say to that? Victoria?
Victoria Hasson:Yeah, I think that's one of the most interesting findings of my sort of career to date is realising that this population group isn't particularly privileged, and that it has less access to care and support particularly on issues around mental health and well being but and other areas as well, then the rest of the population mean, they sometimes struggle to, you know, go to get a diabetes check hospital without it being released to the press, and, you know, might be something sort of simple like that, but their family might find out before they've had a chance to tell them because their records were leaked, and, you know, on something related to depression, or anxiety, burnout stress that's really sensitive. So their access to care and support is lower than other individuals, I think they are obviously more privileged, but that doesn't mean they are privileged when it comes to access to care.
Ashley Weinberg:An example from the UK is that mental health counselling service was made available to members of the British Parliament in 2012, after a debate in the House of Commons, where MPs, I think, possibly for the first time spoke openly about some of the issues they'd had in relation to their mental health. And that was a watershed moment, it sort of, I think, gave permission if permission were needed. But when you're battling stigma, often it is it opened the doors to kind of okay, well, here's an issue, we're recognising that and we're going to do something about it. Because, as Victoria said, he just couldn't pop along to your local GP surgery, queue up with everyone else, and they would know exactly who you were and what was going on with you. And I think that issue of stigma is a is a bigger one. And we're going to have relatively few cases until recent years where a politician like a prime minister, like the former Prime Minister of Norway, Cal Magna, Bonderman actually said, I'm suffering with depression, I'm going to step down. He did, he got well, he came back, and he won. And that had implications beyond politics, where people with mental health issues or an experience of them felt with the prime minister can do that. And he gets well, then, you know, we have the remit to talk about our issues as well. So it's tremendously powerful beyond politics as well.
Joe Lee-Dowd:Yeah. Why do we think possibly, that there might be more stigma in politics than in other workforces? Victoria? What do you think about that?
Victoria Hasson:Yeah, I mean, I think it is, the global normative shift on mental health has impacted politics, it's just the last bastion on it. So it's changing. There have been these public disclosures recently that have sort of given hope that politicians have sort of feeling more able to share their struggles, but I think it's still to be won. And I think it's still to be won. Because linking the realities of political life to your mental health condition, sort of goes against everything, you say, when you try to win your seat, like, I can do this job, I want to do this job, I'm capable of doing this job. I love this job. But I'm also battling with depression, because it's just such a high stressful job. Or, obviously, it's very difficult also, to know the precise reasons that might have triggered the mental health issues. But we can pretty much surmise that if they're really busy and burnt out that maybe they're not capable of doing their job. So I think it's going to take some time because of the context of the narrative and that they love their job. So they don't want to say anything that contradicts that, even if it sort of coming out and saying that it's you're struggling with something that is not definitely helped by the job, and try to get that seat makes it pretty risky.
Joe Lee-Dowd:Yeah, it's a really interesting point around the sort of the capabilities to actually do your job and making sure that people who have long standing mental health problems, for example, don't feel that they should be excluded from the world of politics. But on the flip side, I did also just want to talk about how mental health and well being the importance of mental health and well being in our political leaders and ask you, Ashley, what's the evidence that politicians mental health impact us all? What's the evidence that the well being of our leaders can have a knock on effect on the well being of our communities and the constituents that our politicians represent?
Ashley Weinberg:You know, politics is about the art of decision making, or perhaps not making a decision depending on the individual and the context. And so the quality of decision making and weighing up huge quantities of evidence presented to you often in a short space of time, potentially with loss of life, impact on people's well being quality of life means there's considerable pressure to get that decision right? Or to be able to question and probe what you're being told. Now, if you're suffering, as Victor is described, there, you're working long hours, you may well be feeling tired, you are aware of two or three other things that are going on at the same time, which may carry equal weighting. It's, as a human being, we haven't evolved beyond very much in the last 1020 30,000 years as a species, we're suddenly we have an extra brain where we can park these things. There are highly capable individuals who can carry a lot of this information around. But you need to be able to concentrate, you need to have at least adequate sleep, feel awake and alert, and sufficiently level headed to make a decision that goes well. Now, you know, I'm not suggesting for a minute, if you're suffering with depression, anxiety, you couldn't do that. I'm not saying that. But it makes it that much more difficult with any health condition you may be struggling with or episode. So we've actually made the necessary cognitive arrangements to carry that information, analyse it, and then make a decision, and then off go the fighter jets, or the Finance bill, or whatever it might be. So in that sense, those implications for everyone? Well, as a real potential from any political situation.
Joe Lee-Dowd:Absolutely. Victoria, any other thoughts on that?
Victoria Hasson:Yeah. I mean, it's really tricky question that I get asked a lot, you know, it's really hard to say all of the decisions that could have would have should have been made, had that politician or this group of politicians just been in a coma, mental state in the room. But I mean, I have on, you know, practically, in practical sort of ways witnessed firsthand that, for example, when I worked in the National Assembly, in South Africa, it was quite noticeable that all the hot committees dealing with the sort of hot corruption issues or current affair issues of maybe the healthcare service or education service, they were full of these, like Type A behaviours, sort of really urgent kind of ambitious characters, that then even they were also sitting on committees like the Rules Committee and committees that were scheduling business of Parliament and looking at the administration of Parliament and taking future decisions around how the institution should innovate, renovate, interact with citizens, and just essentially think about sort of the bigger picture, they could never get to that committee, those committees would almost always get cancelled, because they just didn't have the headspace for it, they were exhausted from all of the work they were doing in the other committees, I know that this trend exists elsewhere. So practically, in practical terms, decisions around training of for members innovating that Parliament innovating interactions with systems need political sign off, but then the last time a list of the meetings that they have to go to, and sometimes often they don't get there, they will get cancelled, or when they are in that room that at that point, they've had overload. So it's just like, yeah, you just do whatever. So then they lack political direction, and administration, after administration are waiting to get the green light to innovate the IT system will provide a particular innovative solution to citizen engagement. So actually, democratic innovation, I'm absolutely convinced has come at a price of just this mental overload.
Ashley Weinberg:You know, it's taking those kinds of stories and examples and seeing what that's like in different parliamentary and political situations. Whether it's a local community already at a national level, it's vitally important that we want to understand what is a politician able to do? Because we're very clear on what the expectations are, that they should be pretty much perfect, be great communicators, not be paid that much. And don't make a mistake, you know, and always reply to everyone's messages. So you know, the expectations are pretty clear. That's how one individual does that. The UK, for example, you may have 70,000 constituents, can anyone listening to this? Imagine representing the views of 70,000 people a year
Victoria Hasson:in certain instances, I have absolutely thought at a given moment, when I've seen a politician leave my office to go to a particular meeting, for example, that was quite important. And in particular bill, I have often thought it would probably be better, he just didn't go to that meeting than present himself in the state that he is in. So the absenteeism and sometimes is better than presenteeism, if you're working when you're not particularly well,
Joe Lee-Dowd:Ashley, what about your insights? Do you feel that do you get the impression from your work and experience the politicians current day politicians are struggling mentally,
Ashley Weinberg:in surveys I've done and others have as well with MPs in the UK, for example, not unlike the general population, about 20% or so at any given time we'll be experiencing symptoms of poor psychological health, difficulty sleeping, maybe some physical manifestations of that nausea, indigestion, headaches, but also some of the things around anxiety it in depression that we're familiar with, at times of extreme pressure, for example, we did a study during the expenses crisis, suspending for a minute whose fault all that is, but rates of those symptoms doubled. Around 40% of the politicians were really struggling. And we saw that anecdotally, and we saw that discussed in the media. It's not too different across other countries as well. And so I have a colleague working in Malawi, he's done a study there. And we did a study in Australia as well. And those sort of symptom levels are there, probably all the time for a proportion of the population proportion of MPs as well. But it's then those events that build on and cause that to ratchet up. Those are the flashpoints, I guess for individuals, the kind of example that Victoria described there, where you can see someone is literally struggling to put that public face on, which we know is part of what politicians are required to do. And I've seen a government minister, you know, talking to me, I suppose I was the person who was causing them to have their public face on we'd have an interview or whatever, and then leaving the room and just glancing back, and you see, that one was physically deflated in the Chair, I'd like to think that isn't the impact I have on people, but it's actually a constant being switched on the whole time. It's what it does. And you you see the moved away from the camera or the focus, and there it is, it's laid there for everyone to see. So yes, you know, there are experiences of considerable strain, as there are in many other jobs. It's just obviously much more obvious when issues go wrong in their politicians life, I
Joe Lee-Dowd:guess. Yeah. And would you say actually, from your experience, that there are certain kinds of certain groups of politicians who seem to struggle more often or more than other groups?
Ashley Weinberg:I think one of the things I'm continually learning and relearning and research and working with a range of occupational groups, including politicians is that actually, there's no, I don't think there's an individual makeup who is immune from the psych the impact of a psychological challenge. And you know, we've all met that person who seems pretty bulletproof. But then they will experience you know, a particular event, whether it's a relationship breakup or a bereavement, or it's considerable issues to do with their job, all of those combined. And then suddenly, you see that individual, really quite vulnerable and struggling, I think it's part of the human condition.
Victoria Hasson:If I may just come in on that, you just reminded me of a conversation I've had with someone that, you know, talked about how it's almost harder, I think so well, was for him, in particular, to identify that he was suffering from depression, because every morning he woke up feeling really low and sad. But then the day was so adrenaline fueled, that he forgot. So they can go on for a very long time, my whole entire terms, I think entire careers, and then the second you lose your seat, or you leave, then it all comes out. So politics not only perpetuates perhaps the mental health problems, but it also hides it, it covers it up because it is isn't really it's full of the other juices that really sort of get you buzzing, and that you can sort of hide it for until something tipped you over the edge, it might just be just one, they're just too much. But or you will finish and then collapse afterwards.
Joe Lee-Dowd:Ashley, what evidence based interventions actually exist that we could draw from and spread around the world? Which would be effective do you feel?
Ashley Weinberg:Well, from the world of work psychology, we know there are lots of controlled studies and interventions and real world reforms and progress in organisations, not necessarily political ones, where you can show that the design a good design of work that looks at what's a reasonable management workflow, that ensures individuals have a reasonable level of control over what's happening in their work lives, as well as the sense of security, that can all be good for the individual. All the things that of course, that are obviously absent in a political career, it would seem to some degree, and that shouldn't make us again, feel sorry for politicians, but there needs to be an openness in parliamentary institutions, in political parties as well. And amongst those who are engaging in politics, often has political staff perhaps, to be able to try something different. And that might mean sort of looking carefully at how their jobs are designed. Because very often they are haphazard, they've come to be they've come to evolve. Quite recently, I was working with a working well in this group and Westminster of MPs staff. And together we produced a report, looking at kind of the working conditions of MPs staff, showing quite clearly there are a real room for improvement there to bring those working conditions to the same standards as you'd expect in other jobs. And so there's some, in that sense, almost elementary stuff that organisations involved in politics need to make sure it's happened. In addition at the individual level and in how we interact with each other. I know Victoria will have lots to say around this is the actual culture of the organisation in gendering respectful and positive behaviours and ensuring that bullying and harassment cannot be part of the daily or accepted or tolerated way of doing things. In summary, there are sort of structural issues that we can address, perhaps with, you know, decent human resources interventions that we know will work in any other workplace, but also that working on the culture. And finally there's looking at individuals, and you mentioned resilience training their laboratory, it's kind of, you know, helping individuals be prepared for what might come. It's hard enough in any job, but politics is no different.
Joe Lee-Dowd:Yeah, that makes sense. And the resilience training that you mentioned, Victoria, what do you see really effective resilience training, sort of, what does that look like?
Victoria Hasson:It's funny, you know, this sounds like a little plug to the book that I am writing, it hasn't yet written there. But I got to the point where having sort of identified the pain points, and then the well being pillars from what comes from the political experience, I realised that actually what I really wanted to be able to support was a tender resilience, because it is evidence that politicians have resilience. And they go in with lots of I mean, they are extremely, you know, sort of ambitious, and well equipped individuals, when they go into politics, and it just sort of grows, they're essentially they're resilient. So they are resilient, that it's the nature of that resilience, that fascinates me and reshaping it to not just resilience that they can bounce back even quicker, for example, but it's to make sure they don't bounce back in a particular way that dehumanises them. So I'm working out for the second version of the book, how to cultivate and nurture a tender resilience, one that actually draws on and fortifies their humanity, rather than sort of denies it, and which is the sort of elephant thick skin that they have to acquire and almost sort of proudly acquired,
Joe Lee-Dowd:you will so touched on institutions a little before I just wanted to get your thoughts on who you think is really responsible for doing this stuff who's responsible for, you know, providing training or offering whatever support network it might be? Is it parties themselves? Or do we think it lies with the institutions Parliament's a mix of both? Where does that responsibility, but I do think it is a tricky
Victoria Hasson:one, because Parliament's quite gladly offer training, I think on lots of these issues. It does require political science and political attention. But they gladly offer it, it's just attendance is tricky when it comes to cross party stuff on things that are issues that are quite soft. So parliamentarians or members will be very wary of doing that with the conservatives, the Labour Party in the room talking about their own sort of inner experiences and politics and how to develop resilience and share stories which these things have to inevitably go into. So then you draw back on political parties as being perhaps a safer space, but that's also riddled with kind of challenges. And that's why most trainings, just stick at the procedural stuff, the safe stuff that can't really go two or three layers down, which would actually be really helpful, because who's going to deliver it, so it sort of needs to actually be another space and maybe in an organisation that doesn't quite yet exist.
Ashley Weinberg:Mindfulness interventions is something that I know of the UK Parliament, and now many Parliament's across the world, have politicians and political staff involved in quite a lot, as a relatively low cost, time limited kind of thing where people can come together and sort of at least de stress a little bit, it might not be a long term solution. That's that those are quite popular in political institutions I've noticed in recent years, but when it comes to sort of designing the workplace, unless you've got a brand new parliament, it's tricky has Victoria say he probably wouldn't start from here, if you were going to design something that was a well working organisation for the Scottish Parliament and the Senate, which is the equivalent of a parliamentary institution in Wales, you know, only existed since 1999, I think, and the family friendly approach, the openness to kind of design in the organisation. So instead of having opposition parties sat literally opposite each other, which there is in sort of the Westminster parliament, for example. They're, like many Bibles around the world in a semicircle. So there's a sense of physical establishment the organisation in a way that actually we're all on the same side here, we may be slightly different ends of the spectrum. There are sort of those kind of design issues as well. But also some of the work that was done around rationalising the working week for politicians in the Westminster parliament, I'm sorry to use that again, as an example. But it's where I most of my work has been. But they actually did after a number of years of soul searching decided that actually, yes, we should make time for constituency work. It shouldn't just be something an MP goes and does on a weekend when that means they wouldn't get to see their families or friends. It's something that actually there should be less parliamentary time devoted to debates in order they can spend quality time with constituents and also have something in the family life as well. So that sort of after sort of 10 years of back and forth came into being and there's a much different shape now to the parliamentary week in the UK, than would have been the case not that long ago. So there are, you know, templates, I think for Yes, organisations, even some of the oldest ones can do things differently. But I think as we've all been agreeing there needs to be the political will to make that happen. But short answer your question. Yeah, I think it's the responsible to political parties and institutions, as well as the MPs and their staff as well,
Victoria Hasson:just to come back to the design point, I really think that, you know, sticking plaster on resilience training and mental health training won't tackle the big problem of culture unless we do actually get to the design of design issue that actually keeps on raising, because you know, that what it takes to deliver popular sovereignty, especially at national level, but also at local level has dramatically changed. But the resources and the terms of the role hasn't changed at all. And until we tackle that, we can't even begin to tackle culture, because it all derives from that the entire mentality of how they do their job is because of what they are now being asked to do, and actually not having any control over it. So I guess training, obviously, on mental health and awareness and resilience, coupled with real conversations around how we design, the delivery of democracy and how we deliver sovereignty, in essence, how they can actually speak, you know, truth to power, do accountability, engage with citizens, when and how and the quality I mean, I really worry about the quality of our democratic processes as a consequence of political well being. And it's that that's the sort of massively affected and you can't get to improve the quality of democratic processes just by talking to politicians about disclosing their mental health and keeping well, you have to redesign their role and how they deliver it that just have to go hand in hand.
Joe Lee-Dowd:On the flip side, for political education, actually, in Parliament, I think you'd advocate before actually for politicians or the role of a politician actually being advertised with sort of government health information package or something. There's almost like a disclaimer,
Ashley Weinberg:with a government health warning on it. Yes. The phrase, yeah, this job, but it's interesting, because, again, you read books like Isabel Hartman's book, or why we get the wrong politicians. It turns out, she's not having to dig up politicians. She's saying, the system here isn't right. But yeah, I think, you know, it's important we recognise the MPs, therefore, coming and taking on the job, recognise the difficulties that you're likely to face. And that it isn't just a case of what one MP said famously was, I came into the house of commons, I was told, here's a phone, there's your desk, off you go, you know, that onboarding, those induction procedures are really vital.
Joe Lee-Dowd:Absolutely. Yeah. It's really interesting. Okay, just wanted to ask it a quick question on research, because we've sort of touched on areas where we might have examples of interventions that work but areas where we might need much more research more widely. So if there was sort of one area of what's missing in practice, that would really help the work of both of you, if we have more significant robust research on it, you could pick one area to delve into, what would you say to you, Victoria?
Victoria Hasson:I'm battling because I just have so many questions that I want answered, even some the more I asked the more questions I have, I think that I want to find out about. But I mean, I do think when it comes to the particular focus on mental health, and I guess for me, its impact on sort of democratic innovation and getting the right people into politics. And that revolutionary moment of reimagining politics, I think, you know, for me, the idiosyncratic data on what they get up to, and how it makes them feel, which is just breaking it all open to sort of be able to do all of that would be so helpful. And I think it relates to your point earlier, actually, that they get into Parliament thinking they're going to be able to do so many things, and then they realise it's very different. And then there starts the shame cycle, because there is a sense of shame, like, I thought I was going to be able to do this, I thought it was going to look and be and feel quite different. I'll roll with it. And I still really love it. And I want to keep doing it. So I can't really tell anybody that it's not really, it's not really particularly effective. And I don't really feel like I'm being particularly effective. And maybe that's just how it is. But if we could just break that open and say, Okay, let's just get at what you actually do. Let's just map this out, and then see what we can change about it. Because in the end, the quality of democracy is at stake, their ability to innovate at stake. And I don't form anything that we're going to be able to get a politician to completely share minute by minute what they get up to and how it makes them feel. But actually, I think that would be the research the data that I would love, and that's where the innovation could come in and that we're talking about on all levels.
Joe Lee-Dowd:insightful. Why do we think that this research doesn't exist? Why don't we have it already? Is there an academia bias against politicians or what are your thoughts? Actually, what do you think you're shaking your head? Well, I
Ashley Weinberg:hope there isn't advice. I think there is hesitancy amongst academics to get involved with empirical data from for psychologists perspective, perhaps, political scientists seem much more adept at doing this. But I think there's a hesitancy about, you know, the risks that are involved. Would you get funding? Probably not, you know, would it cause you to have a profile that might be exposed? In some kind of way, well, you know, that can happen, you know, and that you have to be careful about that when you're doing research and politicians. But obviously, you abide by an ethical code, everything hopefully, should be fine and you protect people's identity. So I think there are those practical worries for for academics. For me, it's been kind of a call it a research hobby. It's been a research I do, but I don't have funding for it. And, you know, it's, I feel passionate about what I do, as do others who are in this area. But I think just going back to what would be a dream study in Victoria, you reminded me of the thing I think would be wonderful. We see that often in television with sports people now reality TV, without turning into a show. But if you could, if you could wire up an individual while they're giving a speech, let's have the galvanic skin response to the heart monitor their EEG portable device, you know, and see what physiological contortions they go through whilst in the cost of doing their job. Getting them to keep a diary, perhaps in some kind of way of things would be fascinating. And perhaps, open the lid in a way that may be a bit more user friendly than saying, Tell me how you're feeling.
Victoria Hasson:I have thought a lot about why we don't have this information. And I think it is that the gap in academic inquiry is, as Ashley said, it's riddled with a little bit of fear as well. And also, I think political scientists think that psychologists were going to study it. And psychologists think that political scientists are going to study something, maybe not even intentional to some degree.
Joe Lee-Dowd:So We're nearly out of time. Sadly, we've reached a near end of what's been a really fascinating discussion. And we just wanted to finish off on a positive note by asking you both a couple of final questions. The first is, what would be the three key takeaways, the three things that you want the audience of our podcast to take away from the discussion we've had today. So your three key takeaways, please, first, Ashley?
Ashley Weinberg:I think number one, that politicians are human beings. I think we often forget that sometimes that I think that would be my first point. Secondly, I think that change is possible in political institutions, even long standing ones, and that sometimes the people who are in the roles where we think that they could lead that change, may not feel how that's possible. So that, you know, if we could get parliaments to be open to help and advice, that would be helpful, I think. And I suppose the final thing, or this probably sounds like a cliche, but it's a phrase I've used in, in something I've written, which is that change is possible. And progress is slow. Persistence is the key.
Joe Lee-Dowd:Nice. Is that approach. Awesome. And Victoria, your three key takeaways
Victoria Hasson:is hard. I've chopped and changed into something you were talking actually. But I think my top takeaway would be that we need politicians to be angry about injustice, we need them to fight for social justice, but we and we need them to work hard to do those things on our behalf. But we also need to accept that doing fighting for social justice and being angry about injustice takes its toll. It's a very heavy type of living. And therefore we do need to help them to find healthy coping mechanisms and provide them with the resources to do so if we want them to be angry on our behalf. So that's my top one. And second, that I think that while they choose to be angry on our behalf and fight for truth and power and justice, that doesn't make it any less depreciating on their mental health. You know, it might be a choice, but it's still no less debilitating. And then the third, I think, obviously, is the one that we started with. It's, you know, good mental health and well being is it's not just no good for democracy, but it's ultimately good for their systems that they are themselves a service. So I would definitely advocate for self care for service on this podcast.
Joe Lee-Dowd:Thank you. That's six top top top takeaways there from our two guests. Finally, we just wanted to ask a question that we're going to be asking you all of our guests or our podcasts every week, and that's what is currently giving you political hope. I'll start with you this time, Victoria, what's giving you political hope at the moment,
Victoria Hasson:it's just this week, it landed that sort of the conversation around injecting joy and fun into a politician's public life. I think that gave me a little bit of hope. It was like sort of eating chocolate cake seeing responses to Senator in and so that gave me this bit of hope.
Joe Lee-Dowd:And actually, finally, what's giving you political hope at the moment?
Ashley Weinberg:I think that after researching in this area for it's 30 years, crikey. I think I'm seeing more and more people interested in this area and coming on board and doing the work like Victoria has been describing and her work and others as well. And that I think I'm starting to see signs from within political institutions people started to reach out to, okay, you know, come and help us what seems to be the problem, how can we act on what we're doing? And let's start changing things. So democracy works for the better, and works for everyone. That's where I'm getting my hope from, I think,
Joe Lee-Dowd:something for us all to feel hopeful for to take away.
Kim McArthur:And that was our discussion with doctors Victoria Hudson and Ashley Weinberg. Thank you for listening, and daring to hope apolitical hope is a podcast from the apolitical foundation. We'll be back with more from the changemakers helping politicians to serve people on the planet. In the coming weeks, you can help us shift the discussion on what's possible in politics. By sharing this episode with your friends and tagging us on social media. You'll find us on Twitter at a political found on Facebook and Instagram at a political foundation, all one word, and LinkedIn at a political foundation to words. And it wouldn't be a podcast if we didn't ask you to rate review and subscribe wherever you get this podcast. Last but definitely not least, we have a really great weekly briefing full of resources, tips and jobs for people wanting to build better politics. You can subscribe to that in the show notes. It's the best way to join our network and keep up to date with our work.